The following discussion took place via email (whilst Jock was on holiday in China!) between 24 March – 29 April 2010. A previous interview took place in 2007.
Jock Mooney is exhibiting in the group show ‘Based on a True Story’ at Artsway in Sway, Hampshire. The show runs from 3 July – 30 August 2010.
For more about Jock Mooney see http://www.jockmooney.com
Vom-Shit Dog (2006)
Hey Jock,
What exhibitions have you got lined up?
In July I will be part of a group show at Artsway, which is in Sway, Hampshire. I’m using the show as impetus to get a large volume of new drawn works framed. A set of six wreath collages comprised of orginal drawings, they are quite an intense body of works – pervy, frightening, beautiful, mysterious, wanky, humble.
Since you left Newcastle and Edinburgh, how have you found life as an artist compares now that you’re based in London town? What have been the pros and cons?
Well, I’ve never lived anywhere near the sheer scale of London. When I lived in Newcastle, and Edinburgh to a degree, I always thought “London will always be there” and indeed, I did take part in several shows in London whilst being based elsewhere. What is true though is the fact that I’ve found a lot more opportunity out of being based here. That is a fact. I am not going to get into a “Newcastle VS London” argument, as I think it is pretty obvious that there will be more opportunities in a larger city. There is, of course, competition to be seen in a large crowd of people – but for me the idea that you can always meet someone new or make a new opportunity is preferable to feeling like you are treading water. Still, each to his own. I love living here, and I know plenty of people who hate it. I would always advise trying it out though.
Of course, London is expensive to live in, but then the materials that I work with are relatively inexpensive – compared to oils or more industrial sized projects. I work from home, so I don’t incur any studio costs. I miss the studio environment that there was in Art College, but from having a studio at Waygood in Newcastle I realised very quickly that my dreams of recreating that buzz was not going to happen. Most people are in the studio at differing times, and some people basically just seem to use it as storage, so I don’t feel like I am missing that much. That said, next week I may want to start making 200 foot concrete dildos or something. That would be require a studio space.
What does really piss me off about London, and I imagine a lot of people with any sense and a small budget for ‘fun’, is that really unfair thing of exhibitions costing a fortune in London because it is London. A show that was on at the National Gallery then travelled elsewhere, where it was free. Tourists take precident over the people that actually live there, but money is money.
A Bay of Fake Blood Surrounds Us - Acrylics and ink on card, collage of original drawings (2009)
Your latest works are collages made from your own hand drawn and painted cut out pieces. There seems to be a direct translation between these collages and those sculptures you made creating you own elements. Which method do you feel engages most reaction from viewers? And from collectors?
Ha! Well, I am being very honest when I say the collaged wreaths were born out of a desire to make more ‘sellable’ works. I have no shame in that whatsoever, and in any case I was proved to be correct. The sculptural works do sell, but not quite as easily as a framed work. Most buyers are scared of a sculptural item – hence why I am going to move into making individual cased works, in addition to some new approaches which will blur the boundaries between the 3D and 2D. It isn’t all about selling though, and I do have some projects that I want to do which are completely liberated from that sort of pressure. I think you have to find a good balance between the two. In any case, the art market is (as everyone knows) not good at all at the moment. I also can’t command the sort of prices that I would really want to – based on how time consuming my work is. It becomes a case of making some money or no money. The film based projects pay a far more reasonable rate, but that too, compared to what a plumber or someone else who uses their hands in very minor. I am not in this for money, but I am not going to shun the chance for some mogul to take me under their wing and sell a picture that sold for £1000 last week going on the market at 10 K either. There is a huge element of luck, which you can’t really summon with networking. It either happens or it doesn’t.
You’ve also been making videos for bands, such as Tom Fun Orchestra. How did that come about? When did you start making music videos? And as someone who works in multiple practices, how do you find a balance between commissions and self led work? And how do these affect one another?
I work with a chap called Alasdair Brotherston on film projects. We co-direct, but also do a large volume of other creative things together. We also edit things together, and the whole lot really. Some of our projects have had a definite ‘look’ that is associated with my works, but others haven’t. It’s great to genuinely collaborate and come up with someone that you wouldn’t on your own. It does have bad sides though. Sometimes you will simply not agree on an idea, but in general we try to be quite democratic about things like that. Even if I had an idea that I would fight to the death over, I wouldn’t force it, and the same goes for Alasdair. Still, if I had a really great idea that he hated, there is nothing to stop me doing that as a solo project – so in that sense the combination of the two is very agreeable. In honesty, we’re not being inundated with offers to a degree where it would stop my artistic solo stuff, we’re still getting our names out there and it is progressing well so far. It is a very different world to the fine art game. It is encouraging to see other artists such as the Chapman brothers and Shrigley doing them too – it is blurring the lines between high brow and low brow, which I am all for.
Artsway looks like a great space. Jordan Baseman exhibited there last year and is currently exhibiting at the Batlic here in Geordie Land. How did you line that show up? Is there a principal theme to the show?
The curator, Peter Bonnell, asked me to do it. It has a collected theme of being ‘based on a true story’, which suits me very well as largely my works are based on my own and other people’s combined experience, story telling, rumour mills, pepper mills etc.
You use the word ‘wanky’ to describe your work. That’s not a term you would usually hear in gallery literature speak. Why is that?! Is it because gallery speak often tends to be wanky in itself, as a generalisation?!
Well, I tend to be quite self aware, as I think most artists are. Generally a group of artists (as friends) will talk about their work in one way, and then talk about it in “gallery speak”, which is fine – it is a language that is appropriate at certrain times, but I do not feel the need to constantly wedge a veil of words in front of myself. Sometimes it is fun though – that said, I am not an art writer and never proclaim to be. That is a job in it’s self. Like chefs and restaurant critics.
I remember you telling me before that you really liked the work of Claes Oldenburg, so have you really any plans to one day build 200 foot concrete dildos?!
The scale thing is something that I may like to look into in the future, but in all honesty I can’t see it happening anytime soon. I do not have the patience (nor the funds) to carry out one project to such a level. That said, of course I’d love to see a 300 ft vom-shit dog going up and down the Thames on a barge a la Michael Jackson, but I don’t know if anyone else would. Maybe I am too self aware of appearing as a selfish art-twat. That said, if someone paid for it, and did all the groundwork I’d be up for it! I am in Beijing at the moment and went to the Lama temple yesterday. There is a HUGE buddah in there, which is incredibly impressive, it makes a change feeling dwarfed by a sculpture that is highly representational as opposed to the usual large scale public art that tends to be somewhat abstract. This buddah, I know serves a purpose outside the relm of art, but as a non believer, I appreciated it for the unquesionable level of skill, showmanship and art in it.
Recently (well, last September) you were involved in Laboratory exhibition at Jerwood Space. How did you find the process of making work in public rather than in private? And how did it compare to working in your studios at art college? I heard yours was well received – this was told to me by someone from the gallery who showed my work in art fairs last year whose friend organized the event – that’s the network! What are your thoughts on networking as a promotional tool? Mark Leckey has a Myspace page and he won the Turner Prize, so maybe it cant be bad!
The Jerwood show was good – though I do feel that I didn’t entirely relax. When I did, I produced some works that I really wouldn’t have done out with the environment. We also shot a music video there for the band Silvery – that will be out soon. There was a review of the show posted in TimeOut which was based on the third day of a month long experimental show. It wasn’t favourable, and I am not above critique, but I didn’t see the point of it. I compared it to reviewing a snow man five days after it has melted, or two days before it has been built. Still, the reviewer had the word “cock” in his name, so I appeased myself with that observation.
I have a facebook page, and a myspace for my music – I think now you really have to embrace these places, though obviously it means that there is a bit of a free for all quality wise. Still, not everyone can live in a thriving city, and indeed they may not want to, so it is invaluable in that sense.
You sound very assured of how the market can (and cant )work for you. Have you any plans or desire to see how you can work in the art world markets of other countries?
Well, I am getting some business cards printed up here in Beijing before I go to the 798 art district – take from that what you will!
In blurring the lines between high brow and low brow are you effectively looking to create a Frida Khaloesque mono brow over the historic face of art!? How do you intend to blur these brows?
With a pair of tweezers and some patience. It will also be painful.
I heard a while back, maybe a year or so, that you and Flora Whitely were going to be collaborating on some projects. Is that true or did Vane/Grazia Magazine get this wrong? What became if there was the collaboration there?
Flora is very busy and her project with Darren Banks (better place portraiture) has really taken off. There sometimes really isn’t time to always do the things you want, but hopefully we’ll get a grip.
I’m meeting Glasgee based ‘funny’ artist David Shrigley next week. Any questions or messages for him? Tell him to check me out! My new site will be up then!
I will pass on your request to Mr Shriggers, I have your book so I will take that along to show him. He does very well with little books, badges, plectrums, salt and pepper (cocaine and heroin) shakers as well as other more nik-nak art items. Have you any plans to commercialise your work in such ways? Vinyl vom-shit dogs?
I’d love to make an edition of plastic vom shit dogs – but that sort of thing really needs a business plan to take off. I need to find the right person to work with on that one, on the back boiler though.
You mentioned Peter Bonnell, he recently reviewed Emergency 4 at Aspex Art Space for AN magazine. You took part in Emergency 3 two years ago. How was that experience? You showed your ever evolving piece ‘Discontinued’. How is that continuing?
I couldn’t get down there to set up the work, which always frustrates me, so my experience of it was actually less involved than I would have liked it to be. That installation can be set up by other people than myself, but I would always rather be the one placing things down if I can! A lot of the work is about the freedom to try out differnet permutations, juxtapositions, in-jokes and comparisons. Still, I have to be quite strict about arrangements that I make with galleries that want to show the work – in general (at the very least) I ask for my travel and accomodation to be covered, which sadly isn’t always possible with budgets that people have to work with. I do, however, think it is really important to not spend huge amounts of money just to show one’s own work, that would crush any self respect I had for myself!
You make a great point on the difference between being an art writer/critic/artist. Do you think there is a necessity for artists to use gallery speak in working with galleries or do you believe that the work alone ought to do the talking?
I remember being at college in my second year and asking myself the same sort of question. In one way, it can be frustrating to feel the need to shroud artworks in words, but at the same time it is incredibly important to be able to talk about your work in an eloquent, considered manner. If you appear to not take an interest in your work then why should anyone else? I think one defining text is interesting – but I’d much rather hear twelve contradictory responses; there is no wrong or right answer which can be frustrating – but it is also something to be encouraged. I do think that people somtimes just sprout utter shite though – an exagerated version of the truth is fine – but utter shite is pointless, it cheapens the work and makes you look like a cock.
The buddah sounds mighty impressive. Do you think that British public art is in someway disassociated from the spiritual reverence that it once may have held? Without wanting to answer my own question, Britain do seem to be in awe at nothing except the shock of the 5 minute attention span media machine churning out shock n’ bore. That said though, the Angel of the North has become a treasured landmark in the public art debate. Your works are not that scale of traditional public art but do you think that the gigantic is necessarily the only approach to art for public spaces? Would you consider the guerilla street artist approach to public art?
I’m not a massive Banksy fan, which I am sure won’t give him sleepless nights, but I am jealous of his success. If I did approach something along the lines of guerilla tatics it wouldn’t feel true to my practice. I do, however, think that it is great to get art outside of the gallery an to always raise that timeless questions – “but is it art?”. If I really felt the need to do somekind of project of that nature I would do it though, but I wouldn’t want to do it for the sake of being edgy. I did, a while back, want to dump hundreds of dead moomin sculptures outside Moomin World in Finland. In a way I am glad I didn’t, but I sort of wish I had. That said, in my final year at college I got in The Sun (newspaper – a triumph) and Sky News for a mouse film that I made. It was called “Goodbye Mouse” and featured a dying mouse that I found in my stairwell. I wanted to kill it to put it out of it’s misery, but couldn’t, so I filmed it. Which is, certainly, more cruel. I caught it’s dying moments and made it into a film. It was undeniably powerful, but it was a bit vulgar. It got a lot of animal rights attention, of course, which I retorted to in a newspaper very well, but ultimatley it was a very naive work to make – I was young and wanted to shock and I soon realised that it was actually quite an “easy” approach to make. Where do you go from a work like that – raping swans? It even got shortlisted for the Bloomberg New Contemporaries (but didn’t make the final show) and thank fuck it didn’t. It wasn’t true to me.
About the Jerwood show reviewer, cock by name cock by nature! But are TimeOut really that well esteemed in their critical art knowledge to make such unsavory critical shout outs about the visual arts? What Art publications/reviewers do you prefer to read? Online or physically?
I think one’s ego generally always wants to read only a good review, though sometimes a highly critical one is something to be considered, and not just barked at. I tend to find reviews a bit frustrating when group shows are involed as really they can often be very surface skimming, with people being summed up in one sentence. I prefer online reviews, as if it is bad, it just seems less painful that holding the hard copy. I was in a bar in Beijing that had a terrible review in TimeOut there (which is free). It really slagged off the place and it was empty. We happend to need to stop for a drink and ended up there. The sense of bitterness in the air was really tangible and while I think that the bar was just a bit shit, it does go on to show how damaging a review can be to someone, or a business. I’d rather not list any one publication in favour over another, my favourite is (needless to say) the one that says I am great.
How is Beijing networking going? Are you out there solely for business or was there a duality of pleasure and business to your trip? The vinyl toy market is largely based in China so will you be seeking quotes whilst your there on editioning vinyl vom-shit-dogs?
It was a holiday, not a networking thing. Literally spent about 2 hours in the 798 Art District looking at galleries and hopefully leaving some places cards. It is an approach that doesn’t usually amount to anyting, but it is important to try and it would have been stupid to not encourage that. I’m keen to make an edition though, but that is a long term project that shouldn’t be rushed into – it does frustrate me to see the sort of prices that editions can still comand though, and I’d obviously be stupid to not want that tapped into.
Paul Becker - Cézanne - oil on copper (2008) 7 x 9.5cm
Which contemporary artists do you enjoy the work of at the moment?
Paul Becker’s tiny pictures have really influenced me of late. I’ve done some tiny pictures of my own, which are by no means copies, but undeniably influenced by him. I am quite pleased with them, as they aren’t really like something that I’ve done before. It is really important, now, for me to feel like I can still surprise myself. Dorota Jurczak and Rabiya Choudry always raise an eyebrow as well. I enjoy people’s work who clearly have fun making it. That is incredibly important.
Your 2D collage wreaths have a strong art historic echo of the dark and macabre collages of Max Ernst, with the exception being that you make your own collage pieces. Are these images based on found images? There are also a lot of severed fingers in the arrangement and being in the shape of wreaths obviously delivers a memento-mori factor but is there a religious connotation to these elements?
I enjoy religious art, but as you know I am myself a non believer, therefore it is a pure appreciation of the visuals on display, and a strange empty fascination with their implications. I admire the sort of power that they are trying to channel, and the presence that they have – some are simply amazing, and one has to remember their reaction that some of these age old things must have guaged at the time, they would have appeared magical. I like to overwhelm people in a similar way, or attempt to.
I have always been fascinated with votive figures and symbols – it also interests me that they span across so many different cultures, from Mexico to China and so many places in between. I can pin point this fascination down to one of my childhood memories of seeing wax limbs hanging in a church in Spain. I though – “I want to do that”.
The severed fingers is a funny one. They always sneak their way in. That started in a practical sense – when drawing items on sheets of card I would fill the spaces with fingers, so not to waste the materials. These then took over, and it’s important to encourage that kind of development, as these now interest me over the more in your face, “shouting” drawings. When you make vom-shit dogs it is important to also have explore some other works that possess a certain mystery and offer more of a quiet whisper than a neon roar.
As well as Artsway, you’re taking part in Exquisite Corpse and is it true you’re showing at Globe Gallery in Newcastle again soon?
The ‘Exquisite Corpse’ show came together recently, I am looking forward to going and seeing it at the weekend. I can’t make the opening tonight sadly as I’m off to the Whitechapel private view. There are about ten shows opening tonight that I want to go to – sadly you can’t be everywhere at once. The Globe show is happening soon – that will be ‘Discontinued’ on a mound of boxes shown in a similar way as it was in the Peter Potter Gallery in Haddington. It will be in a window in an old shop at Monument Mall.
You often mention art school. Did you feel like you were trying to shake off some sort of art school hang over to get to where you are now?
In a way I miss art school and in a way I don’t. I miss the people and the shared studio spaces, you never really get that again, unless you obviously do a Masters. At the same time, I think I needed to get out when I did. I could feel quite restricted at times. I did the Sculpture course and looking back, I would have been more suited to a general fine art course – I was making things and being asked “but is it sculpture?”, that sort of question didn’t happen in the Painting department, where people seemed to just make stuff and then talk about it.
Then there is the money thing – I am aware that a few students follow my work, so in a way I sometimes feel responsible to push the idea that a degree show, while important, is not the be all and end all. I think students sometimes spend far too much money on producing work, a degree show is the start of your career and will certainly, hopefully in fact, not be the best thing you’ll ever do. I toyed with the idea of doing a Masters course, where I’d perhaps get that shared studio space thing back, but really I don’t think it would make financial sense and you have to be realistic about these things. I think I was still growing up when I was at art school really, I went straight from school with no gap year or anything like that. I am now a bit more relaxed about what I make, and how I approach it. I had some great tutors at art school, but also a couple of really bad tutorial experiences which were, for a time, quite damaging. I am very keen on speaking to students on ways of approaching work rather than preaching at them, a tutorial should leave you feeling inspired, confident and interested in your work.
I was in Glasgow last week for the Glasgow International Contemporary Art Festival, there was lots of great stuff to see there. I went to some of a 13 hour performance by Linder. It was very intense, surreal and powerfully seductive. You’ve done performance work in the past. Is that still something that interests you, separate from your practice or not?
I am really keen to do more performances. They are quite honest in their stance – they are just me singing songs, but I am an artist, so as I wrote them I view them in the same light as my sculptures and drawings. It is a really refreshing part of my practice, the sort of energy that you can expel in the moment, that sort of expression and immediacy is very exciting. I think all performing is just showing off really though, so I like to keep things short.
You mention being a non-believer to religion but do you believe in Art Theory? What Theories, if any, art or otherwise, sculpted your artistic output?
I take bits and pieces that I hear along the way, I do not approve of the idea of applying one theory to your practice. I do particularly like Brian Eno’s quote “Art is the one place where we can crash our planes and walk away”. I usually tell myself very often that “you cannot polish a turd” and also swear by telling myself that “the sun will eventually blow up the earth” if I am really struggling with a work. You have to be quite humble with creativity – it is, of course, deeply personal and deeply important, but at the same time you have to sometimes just fucking lighten up. The sun will eventually blow up the earth.
You also said that you like to overwhelm the viewer. What overwhelming feeling and thoughts do you hope the viewer will take away after seeing your works? Does this differ between the collages and the sculptures?
I couldn’t possibly say. I have a strange need to produce artworks – my association with what I make is incredibly selfish. I do show works in public exhibitions, but it is important to note that even if I didn’t I would still make work, and it is important to note that there will be thousands of people who do this – making their own little private worlds. I cannot control what a viewer will see, but what I hope to do is overwhelm, but also inspire and on a lower level even entertain. I view the sculptures as being more in your face and immediate, and the collages as being slightly more abstract, contemplative works – almost hypnotic. I like the idea of visuals taking someone’s head to another place, even for a couple of seconds, so I suppose my main aim is to distract people from their daily thoughts, it is all just attention seeking really. I like the idea of etching an image on someone’s mind – and I think that is what some of the best art can do, inspire people and above all, be memorable. I am fully aware though, that some people will feel absolutely nothing upon viewing my work.
Jock Mooney - Debbie's Arm (2007) 17 x 3 x 4cm
Looking at the fingers I am reminded of the finger of Saint Teresa of Avila, an old walled town north of Madrid. This is why I asked if there is any religious connotation to the collages. Where in Spain did you see those wax limbs hanging in a church?
The wax limbs were in this tiny mountain church in the Pyrenees near Andora. I must have been about five and it just really stayed with me. I love the ideas of little stange shrines in out of the way places – things like Clootie Trees in Scotland are similarly fascinating. I am really inspired by votive offerings, and the way that you find them across so many different cultures and religions. People connect with human imagery as, understandably, they can relate to it. I am deeply fond of the macarbre and there is darkness by the truck load in religious art – especially the Spanish stuff! The carved wooden polychromed things from the 16th Century and threabouts are utterly amazing – in both presence and the skill on show. I love the way that Italian horror films from the ’60s, ’70s and ’80s are essentially an update of the horror on show in traditional Opera.
Thank you for taking the time to answer these and being up for getting involved. I wish I had your strength and determination to do what you do. I hope to have the interview online in the next few weeks. Initially this will be in a blog format until I get a professional .co.uk space. Who do you use these days for your webspace?(okay that was the last question!) I have seen your new webspace. In fact I caught a guy at work looking at it the other day. Not one of the curators mind, but this guy did say he’d always enjoyed your fun and playful works.
All the best with the upcoming shows. I will give you a shout next time I’m in London town. Likewise if your up in Toon, say hi.
Infesting.net 